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Wednesday, January 19, 2011

Trash Dilemma

I faxed my ballot on the trash disposal issue today and as I did so I reflected on all the discusion we have had about our problems with this issue. The underlying problem is that we are apparently the only Association in North Sanpete County to attempt to keep our project cleaned up by offering this disposal service.

We have had a lot of abuse of the rules by owners and others who do not own property in Hideaway Valley, but I have heard nothing about any serious attempt at enforcement of those rules. I have heard many reports that outsiders are using the facility and that large amounts of construction materials and other debris which is not normal household waste are being dumped. I also hear about tires, batteries, and other hazardous wastes being left there.

I would like someone to document for me how many times one of our owners has observed any of this kind of dumping and has talked to the offender about it or reported the offender to one of the trustees.

I offer that about the second or third time we file a civil trespassing complaint against an individual disrespecting the rules for use of this facility much of this behavior will change.

It is time to stop complaining about the abuses and start doing something about them. If we vote to discontinue this service someone is going to wish we had not opened the door to what will surely follow.


  1. Yes this is true! So we don't have Trash Service anymore. What is next? I do not feel that the voting was done diplomaticaly. I like to know which lots actually voted. AND... Did one individual who called herself an "Agent" really get all the votes for other legitimately? I wish that I would have spent my money differently, and built in a different location!

  2. And why is it up to somebody else to decide if they want to publish my comments?

  3. The reason comments have to be moderated is because there are spam robots out there that would put in a lot of advertising and post on our blog--so we filter them out through moderation.

    And we also filter out the comments that don't understand "Please be respectful of everyone."

    Divergent opinions are welcome. They are not filtered.

  4. I sure think Cliff did a good job running the meeting. I am not used to seeing adults act as immature as some of the members did today. The board was mostly calm. Boyd got a little hot once. Cliff does a wonderful job of running things and keeping things appropriate.

  5. In response to Terry--I agree that enforcement has not been adequately tried. Yet who will enforce and how much time does it take--most of the board members work. Do we want to hire goons to do it--remember Hideaway tried that not long ago and it created a lot of conflict hiring an untrained "enforcement" officer. He was fired after numerous complaints and promises of lawsuits.

    I remember when Carpenter sent out enforcment letters--the "accusers" were not identified and the Petersons were accused of piling ladders and other unauthorized junk in the bins--they were not even home on the stated day. Later a neighbor admitted to them it was their trash but that owner never had the balls to stand before the association and admitt it to clear the Peterson's name.

    In addition, I have heard members stand up in board meetings and relay stories of abuses, but ask that they not be identified in the minutes becasue they don't want to cause problems!

    I think enforcement would create as many, if not more problems as not having trash--conflicts between neighbors, threatened lawsuits with false accusations and untrained enforcers. The county won't do it, they already told us that.

    I drive through other projects and I don't see piles of trash on the lots and they don't have service.

    Besides, we can still have trash. Form a cop-op like Whispering Pines has done. This is how it works for them according to their doucments: "Whispering Pines

    Trash Removal – Several homeowners have gotten together to rent a dumpster from North Sanpete Disposal service. For information on how you can join this group for a monthly fee, contact the WPPOA for the current volunteer manager. This dumpster is used for household trash only. No cardboard boxes or other large objects should be discarded in the dumpster. A landfill is located between Mount Pleasant and Ephraim on the west side of the road approximately 2.3 miles south of Hwy 117 intersection and approximately 5 miles north of Ephraim. Wet garbage/food product trash is not accepted here. Another landfill that does accept wet garbage/food product trash is located near Mayfield."

    What's wrong with residents paying for their own trash and recreational users carrying out what they carried in? I will join in a co-op if we want to start one or, I will get my own can.

    and Terry, If I live to regret this, I'll come out publically and call for antoher vote--and take you and PerryLee out to dinner!

  6. I think the meeting was absolutely horrendous. I do not feel there was any control there. As for Clifford Johnson. I think he wants the control and shuts out peoples comments (even when their hand has been raised and they have the floor) before their opinion or comment has been placed. Others in the room ( I won't mention her name) interject and argue with everyone. I find this a very unorganized way to handle a meeting. That is why the arguing and tempers begin! As far as this meeting, there were volunteers from BYU there to count the votes, I did not see them do much of anything. The "Board Members" and so called "agent" were the ones doing the counting! Why couldn't the volunteers do the counting why the meeting continued? This was a huge waste of my time. Anyone know anybody who wants to buy land in Hideaway? I ready to be done with this!

  7. For the posting of Anonymous: I wonder what could be next?!? Association members voting on what services are desired and how much to pay for them? We vote yearly on a budget, as I recall this is a Yes or No vote. If we do not like the new budget then we just vote NO and we get to have another $168 per lot assessment. Helps keep Trustees in check! What if Trustees wanted to go back to the $350 assessment per lot or even higher? We vote NO and we keep the $168 amount. Seems like Democracy to me.

    Now we head into Spring 2011 and start a new quarter. At the Members Meeting the Treasurer’s Report was that we have $35, 828.33 in the bank. Not too bad considering that is only three out of four quarters assessments received for the 2010/2011 budget year.

    As I recall two candidates for Trustee in 2010 stated the Board was going to run out of money and there would not be enough for essential services by the end of 2010. Hideaway Valley spent a record 7750.00 for snow removal in December 2010 alone, eclipsing the snow removal amount in 2009 which was $5400 and change.

    The association membership voted to discontinue trash service paid for by Hideaway Valley. The ballot measure was not to remove all trash services in Hideaway Valley. If you want communal trash, round up some people and start your own organization. The Board already said we could keep the dumpster in the same place. For everyone who uses the dumpster, with permission or not, they will not notice a difference. The can will site there and someone can volunteer to pack it down. Or just haul in a new can for $175 each time. Why not go door to door with hat in hand and seek contributions?

    If all agent forms were disallowed, the vote would not change. The desire to keep a trash service paid for by all lost by more than 2 to 1. I looked to me as if all votes were counted even if some ambiguity was present. I thought I saw a Trustee call a person to clarify a vote. The vote was to discontinue trash. Seems pretty clear that when the people have a chance to state their mind they do so and the Trustees tried to make all votes count. It is also clear the direction of the Association: It is one of personal responsibility.

    And finally for Anonymous, if you do not like the way this blog is run, START YOUR OWN. Sadly, we all bought into an association, they are all inherently bad! At least we have a say in how things are run. The meetings are at known locations and for the most part, the third Saturday of every month. So much better than at people’s houses, with erratic times where God only knows what could happen.

    The great thing about a free market and capitalism is we are all free to pack up and try our luck somewhere else. It is not as if the State issued us a place to live and we are stuck there until the sand leaves the hour glass. Many have left and there are more that will leave. From the way the meetings have gone, one has to have a think skin and a loaded gun to make it in Hideaway. What we need to do is mind our own business and refrain from trespassing on the rights of others. I look forward to the next vote! I wonder what it could be???

  8. Dear Ms. Anonymous: I’m not sure what meeting you attended but the meeting was organized with an agenda as well as an open forum at the end for your comments. It was people talking out of turn and off topic which caused some confusion. Let’s face it; the trash vote was all we cared about. The BYU students did count the vote after a call for volunteers to oversee the counting. Many people stood around the table and watched the letters and ballots being opened. As I witnessed, all mail received after the ballots were mailed were opened at the meeting, bills, payments, ballots, all of it. Seems open and above board to all who witnessed the opening and counting.

    After all the counting and the results were in I walked up and looked at the stacks. Those voting against the trash obligation for the association was twice the size of those wanting to keep the trash as it is. The stacks are all I needed to see. I am sad that I will have to pay for my own trash. It was a good deal, it only cost me a few dollars a month for trash but now it will cost me about $15. At least everyone still pays for other services for me…..

    As for Clifford, he is a jerk but runs a well controlled meeting. The time for people to talk is at the end of the meeting during the open forum, even I know that. His meetings are controlled and cover the agenda. The most important thing is his meetings don’t last 6 hours. I remember meetings where former board members talked and talked yet said nothing. Those meetings were a waste of everyone’s time. Look at where are assessments are now…. $151 sure beats $350 and lots of waste!!!!

    Good luck selling property in Hideaway. Next time don’t build an expensive house in a blue-collar development. A nice double-wide would be more suitable for the land conditions.

  9. For the Record, we did not vote to get rid of the trash in Hideaway. We voted to stop paying for it out the Association budget. Each of us can have trash. We just have to pay for our own like 99% of all Utah does. I do not recall ever living in a place where others paid for my personal household trash. I have lived in Sanaquin, Alaska, California, Virginia, Canada, and Russia. Oops--yes, in Russia the government paid for the trash--I was not personally responsible for my own. Thats called Communism.

    I had a call from a member (who will remain un-named) who said, "You haven't lived here long enough--people will throw trash in the gulleys! Why," she said, "we saw this person put trash on his neighbor's lot--if they do that when we have bins, what will they do when we don't?"

    The argument is spurious, if they do that when we do have bins--why have bins? We might have a few idiots who will trash up the place for awhile. Maybe we'll catch them and issue a civil citation or maybe we won't--but i would rather deal with the occasional idiot who tries to trash up the place to prove a point then to make 375 people absorb the cost of my household waste because i don't want to pay for my own.

    There is more than one trash company that will deal with us and North Sanpete will collect individual cans. I have never seen a bigger bunch of whiners.

    "Whaa whaa whaa--if you don't pay for my trash, my property values will drop..." "Whaa--I don't want to drive to Mayfiled," "Whaa, I don't want to have my own can and take it to the common area once a week for North Sanpete to pick it up..." Come on--comrade, you didn't move out here to "nanny association" you came out here with an independent spirit and to be left alone--otherwise you would have moved to Eagle Mt, Park City, or some la di da gated community.

    So whoever anonymous is, grow the heck up.

  10. Я люблю систему в России. Правительство обеспечивает все, что мы нуждаемся. Хорошо не все, но они дали нам достаточно, чтобы пройти. Если мы нуждались кое в чем, что мы только должны были подкупить кого - то, кто имел то, что мы хотели.

    Я люблю Роя очень. Я не любил факт, он взял много денег из нас в виде расстояние для посещения магазина, но это - образ жизни. Люди в высоких местах пользуются преимуществом, когда деньги других находятся в их руках. Убежище очень походит на СССР прямо после падения коммунизма. Есть вакуум энергии, и Клиффорд ступил в это. Теперь, почему мы платим за удаление снега, когда все мы не используем это? Это - то же самое ко мне, если я должен надеть цепи в шоссе или миле в к развитию.

  11. For those who don't speak Russian:
    I love system in Russia. The Government provides everything we need. Well not everything, but they gave us enough to pass. If we needed some that we only had to bribe someone who had what we wanted.

    I like Roy much. I did not like the fact it took a lot of money from us in the form of distance to shopping, but it's a lifestyle. People in high places have an advantage when the money of others are in their hands. Refuge is very much like the USSR directly after the fall of communism. There is a vacuum energy, and Clifford stepped in it. Now, why do we pay for removing snow, when all we do not use it? This is the same to me if I have to wear a chain in highway or mile in development.
    Shelly did not translate!!

  12. Where is my comment? I wrote it yesterday and I want it published. All these other whiners get to be posted!!!!

  13. You r comment wasn't published because it was disrespectful of a member--but most of it we agreed with--we just ask you not to say unkind things--state facts, yes, but unkind inferences--no. Just reword the rough parts and we'll publish it--thanks!

  14. When will people ever learn to follow the rules, it states what the rules are to post your comment and you don't obey anyway!! Do people not understand English or fail to follow the rules and regulations! No wonder HOA's and POA's are so corrupt!! Read our By Laws and Covenants and laws of the land for Associations, Big Corporations with shareholders and it will show that our little association did nothing wrong in voting to do away with the association not paying for the trash!
    I hope we have another members vote on snow removal! The people who use it should pay for it not the majority who don't!!
    Go current board members, you have my vote for no more snow removal paid by the association. I say put it to a members vote at the next members meeting!!! This Board Rocks! They actually get something done!
    At the person who said the last members meeting was horrendous, you must be from another era! It's called manners that some people don't have and someone who knows how to run a mature public meeting and keeping it under control! Poor sports who lost the vote, are just that poor sports and extremely immature. Which poor sports are. Grow up and learn to follow the rules! Then you won't feel like you are being picked in! Simple as that!'

  15. WHAT A MESS! We are now faced with loosing our SNOW REMOVAL!!!! We cannot afford to pay for our own snow removal. I am so mad at the former board. They spent so much time (and OUR MONEY) to remove Clifford from the board instead of protecting our TRASH and SNOW when they wrote the bylaws. They just up and quit leaving all of us at the mercy of the entire association. We all know the majoriety of the members just want a few dirt roads for summer use and that is it. We bought cheep land and put a nice home on it with the expectation that the association would give us city services. No one ever said it but we all expected it. This is what happens when the members get to vote on issues….the full time residents take it in the shorts!!!! Now we owe too much on our homes and we cannot refinance like we once could. I’m just sick about the mess!!!! Please help!!

  16. To Mad Resident! Did I hear you correctly? You think the majority of the association should pay for services they don't use because you bought cheap land and built a big house but can't afford snow removal and expect others to pay for YOUR needs?? Wow! Wouldn't that be nice, I'm so sad that you have to pay for the services you use! The By Laws would have had to be voted on by all the members and you could've lost both before now!! Whine! Whine! Whine! SOB! SOB! SOB! all the way home to Your BIG home you can't afford. LMAO!!!

  17. parent in hideawayFebruary 1, 2011 at 9:28 PM

    In response to “WHAT A MESS”: I agree with you! We have kids that have to go to school and without snow removal it will be very hard. A cop op for snow? It's pretty expensive. But lots of folks come up on the weekends--don't they want snow removal too? It would cost a lot to plow to the homes on the other side (north side). The entire association should pay becasue it benefits us all--even the ones up on the hill can drive in and snowmobile up to their places. I don’t want to form a coop to remove the snow. You make a good point, why didn’t they protect our trash and snow removal rights when they wrote the laws. I think they are changing the laws so the members have to vote them back in and we know that will never happen. I agree also that we cannot sell our homes and move to the city because of the economy--tough times. Lets work together and keep the snow removal becasue its for all of us and especially the kids.

  18. Don’t hide behind children! It is the same to me if I unload my snowmobile on the highway or by the soon to be gone trash can. I don’t like paying for snow removal! If you don’t want to get the county to remove snow then find a way to take your children to the highway and put them on a bus. Or better yet, home school them. Most of us that come up on weekends don’t come when snow is on the ground. If we do, it is once a month or so. Removing snow does not help us all. It tears up the roads and wears down our thinning paving. I would be happy if there was a coat of snow on the roads from the first snow fall to the start of spring. The roads would be better if we stop scraping them in an effort to aid a few residents. Thanks to this board for letting us all vote!!!!

  19. @a parent in Hideaway...
    There are other associations with no snow removal! We all are having hard times and those who don't want snow removal shouldn't have to pay for it. If you have kids get a snow mobile as you said could get your kids to the snow plowed area that the county has plowed! Things are not going to get easier on any of us, so we pay for what we use. If you have kids, either home school them or plan ahead when you know you are going to be snowed in make sure your kids have their books at home and have the teachers post their assignments and any handouts
    online. What a great idea!!! And to think little old me thought of it!!! It's called 'being prepared'. Wow, I can't believe I'm the only one who could come up with 2 solutions!!'

  20. I don’t see why all the bitterness. It looks like there is a large number of people signing on to voice their opinion. I might be alone here but I don’t mind paying for what I get and I certainly think I can find a better deal on trash than what the association has been getting. My family does not make enough trash to justify a weekly trash can pick up. I think we will buy a trash compactor and a few metal cans with lids. Once I have enough trash I will just make a trip to the dump and take care of it that way. I just don’t see the big deal. I would rather have the money we used to spend on trash spent on the roads.

  21. I have to say I really liked the last two posts. The one on snow removal and the other on taking their trash to the dump! I was getting worried that there's just not too many people on here that can actually be creative and use their brains to solve a personal problem!!


Any one is allowed to make comments. You can use your real name and lot or an assumed name. Please be respectful of everyone, especially our trustees who donate a lot of work for us. Even if you believe they are not acting in our best interests or following our documents, stick to the facts--no name calling or innuendos and unfounded accusations. We want to set a good example for our trustees.